This talk - from the community focused, Stroud IFS Drop In - comes with an activation warning, so inviting any parts not wanting to be here to relax or go play in another area of the room etc. Inviting parts that want to listen and learn to be here. All parts welcome of course, its their choice if they don’t want to listen/read.

Here below is the 20 minute video of me talking about IFS, the dynamics between in IFS language, a bit about the drama triangle, my view of their protective nature… the alternatives, finally coming to look at new ways of being, Self, in the Healthy Triangle, where we can be potent, responsible, responsive, and vulnerable. All my notes from the talk follow below. As you can see I don’t follow exactly!.

This talk is firstly about dynamics between people ...relational … so between two or three people – their external roles … and then the parts of us that get activated internally. The Drama Triangle describes dysfunctional relationships where the people in the relationship – the dynamics between - shift between three roles.. Persecutor, Rescuer and Victim, all held in place by guilt and blame.

How might this be seen in IFS? IFS is usually concerned with the INTERNAL family system. Within us. The dynamics between is dealt with by mainly doing our You-turn. I enjoy Cece Skyes saying ‘ yes sure someones behaving in that way, wouldn’t it be great if we could change them.. that we have a magic wand… but we can’t … come back and lets look..’.

Dick Schwartz ‘the Room’ or Firedrill. Imagining the person we’re triggered by (our tormentor!) in a room, and see what parts come up.

And helpful here too is Martha Sweezy’s Shame cycle in 6 acts.. we looked at this in September https://www.stroudtherapy.com/news/shameifs When ‘a bad thing happens’ and are shamed, we take on the shamefulness… and our protectors take on their jobs – many of which have a dynamic with external people. So.. our ‘anticipatory scout’ protectors – including rescuer/fixer/helpful parts, blaming/judging parts, or protectors that make us smaller/less than look outside to others. AND/OR Firefighters that fawn/soothe the other or distract by fighting back in a warrior mutiny… its not me its you to blame. Martha talks about if ‘a bad thing happens’ in the present, to put your oxygen mask on, and go and spend time with the vulnerable ones, asking protectors to relax a little. Once Self has been with the hurting one, and the nervous system has relaxed a little, then Self can speak with protectors to hear what theyd like to do - and make a decision re entering into a dialogue, leaving the relationship or whatever is needed in the moment. from a non reactive position.

The between is so compassionately worked with in IFIO the IFS couple’s therapy. We use the sideways infinity symbol to check out the often predictable repeated dynamic between two people in relationship, when A says or does x .. the nervous system of B gets activated… what do you say/do to yourself, B… what do you do then? (what would I notice)…. Does A know this part of you? … so then the nervous system of A gets activated… what do you say/do to yourself, A… what do you do then? (what would I notice)…. Etc… we invite doing the u turn… We then return to the relationship, sharing for a part, and maybe the part that was hurting underneath, speaking about the need underneath.

(The Gottmans have a 4 part version of this… the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse.. In that one some one has a vulnerability activated and criticises … so the other defends (maybe a ‘but I was only”)… which causes more activation in the original speaker .. so contemptuous … then stonewalling..) https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/

So, me being me, I became really curious about how the infamous Drama Triangle works with IFS : I’d love to know what you make of it, what happens in your system? Does this bring clarity? Does it make it more confusing?

Seem to be several views in IFS when I asked around with colleagues about the Drama Triangle..

First, it’s the view of many, that as its often used…it is too shaming, speaking about it to another is likely to come from a part of the speaker that is shaming…. ‘naming’ your part… imagine you’re already feeling activated and someone says.. ‘you’re persecuting me’, you’re being a victim, that’s victim mentality, stop being a martyr… Telling someone else, from an activated part, whatever the motivation… has inevitable consequences of a firefighter defense, which often escalates.. and crucially doesn’t get the hurt underneath, what it needs. Makes sense to me!

There is another view, and that is in my view IFSy… that with a U turn, and enough Self energy our curiosity, nothing is too much, if you start befriending those parts of you, for the drama triangle occurs in our internal system as much as outside, that each of these roles can also be seen as protectors within us, and the dynamics between even more information … it’s all about trailheads with protectors that look outwards at others, and finding that kernel, that nugget of intention.. what’s it trying to do. I find it so helpful … for my own exploration of a dynamic in my system, or noticing externally, with a view to witnessing the system. I find it so helpful to recognise hidden dynamics.

So what is it?

Transactional Analysis Eric Berne in 1960s and Stephen Karpman’s Drama Triangle 1968 Fairy tales and script drama analysis Victim Rescuer and Persecutor.. He talked about the Pied Piper, Little red riding hood and Cinderella. Here is his triangle. Often a 3 person dynamic. We often take a preferred role in our external family system, then switch as the interaction develops. What I noticed is this switching. I’m not only the Rescuer or the Victim.. Ah I thought. Our parts switch to different roles, just like the fairy stories for example LRRH… rescuer of granny, victim of the wolf and then persecutor of wolf, I can very quickly move from feeling vulnerable, powerless… so go to rescue someone.. feel upset theyre not appreciating me and get angry with them, and then sit in poor me, no one every appreciates me..… and the drama increases the number of switches. Sometimes we can be several at once.. What I also noticed, when I did my U turn on each of these… is that I know each of these, they are PROTECTORS and not only that they each can be managers or firefighters.

There are true actual victims. There are enough examples in the world out there.. and most likely in our own lives, horrendous situations where we feel hopeless, helpless, ashamed, not good enough. When we experience trauma we create stories to support ourselves to make meaning.

What we talk about Victim here is a protector acting, even often feeling like one, but protectors they are… and in IFS terms can be a firefighter or a manager. The victim protector seeks to convince themselves and others that they can’t do anything, nothing can be done its futile despite trying hard. However, by focusing outside, by having the other as a persecutor, they get stuck, the situation unchanged – and underneath are little ones that have the deeper feelings. We do need to bring care and understanding and be attuned to not re shaming this particular protector.

So, I’ll talk about me or maybe somewhere I relate, the invitation here is for you to do your uturn and ask inside what resonates, what are the similarities and differences..

Victim – helpless damsel These are in the key role really as the others tend to revolve around them. These parts believe they are hard done by Manager… poor me, I’m so hard done by, I’m desolate and powerless, hopeless, ashamed. This protector has this stance as a way of being. It’s stuck there. Or in reaction to a perceived slight, a firefighter, you have no idea what it’s like, I’m so hard done by. I have a part that uses these tactics to keep me from feeling my true feelings, to reduce anxiety and risk taking.. elicit sympathy and rescue, to be looked after, and people will inevitably answer the call. Good intentions, effects not great, both internally, I remain stuck, and I can’t access my real feelings of grief.. and externally others react to this part – they get resentful or feel powerless.

Of course, a victim part needs to have someone to listen and rescue them… internally or externally and also someone who is their persecutor.. or might set someone up to be a persecutor (either real or projected). So there’s a dynamic… . If my protector is offered something, someone tries to rescue… this part might say ‘yes… but’… the system stays stuck. Or focus on the perceived persecution… either generally (they do it to me..) or quick flash angry victim firefighting protector can be angry and aggressive, blaming the other person for their problems. This is what I was taught, might be called ‘perpetrating from victim’, ‘its not me… its you, its him… or her… they are doing this to me’. Both being a victim and a persecutor at the same time. Is this one part or two? Check and see in your system?!

Rescuers – hero or martyr: Manager rescuers… way of life. ‘let me help you’. My rescue and enabling managers, will put others needs constantly before mine. It’s the ‘good guy’.. we’re raised to be ‘good’ and shamed when we’re ‘selfish’ or ‘bad’.. we must take care of people physically, emotionally and spiritually. Polarised with my rescuer is a part that feels guilty or shames me when I don’t. Being brought up a Catholic (Notice the cultural burden). Legacy too. Both my parents had rescuing parts. There’s an element of being controlling, a need to be right, in these parts of me, they use the victim to make ‘me’ feel good. Great intentions.. (the focus is taken off me, the Rescuer, I can feel the moral high ground). But it doesn’t work… these parts stop me feeling my own anxiety and troubled feelings and taking responsibility for them, it makes me avoid my own trailheads… AND often annoying for others and doesn’t allow them to separate, grow and be autonomous, basically these parts of me are hinting to the other ‘you’re inept, you can’t take care of yourself, you’re not good enough, therefore I need to be in charge.’ It doesn’t allow the other to live with the consequences of their behaviours. I can also do a Firefighting rescue. When my nervous system has been activated by another (particularly their parts directing anger, scorn/criticism), I have firefighters that react by fawning and … people pleasing. Which may initially calm the situation but abandons my littlies, who might get on the merrygo round of feeling unseen… oh poor me. Or I can move to the next position and then Persecute from rescuer, or from Victim stance (after all I’ve done for you).

Perpetrators – the villain: So these can also be managers.. Classic villain - I’m not a career criminal lol… if I was I project this part would be hoping to keep me safe in some way, belong within the gang, or feeling powerful, resources. Good intentions, devastating impacts. More usually… these are the ones that judge and say ‘its all your fault’ I certainly have parts that use control, blame, contempt, bullying, judging, angry, authoritarian, rigid and superior tactics. Their intention is to get people to do what I want, or keep me superior, better than or from feeling powerless, small and shameful. Again, I know these parts, both mine and legacy. I have Firefighting parts that, in reaction to another, can have a warrior mutiny. It’s not me it’s you that’s bad… deflecting the pain away from me. And/or I can move to victim (victim from persecutor which might lead the victim to then become the perpetrator and around we go).

So what has become clear in each of these protectors is the good intentions but the missing of the trailhead.. the taking of personal responsiibility and feeling the true feelings underneath. Our little ones get more abandoned inside. The focus is on the other actors… internally and externally in the triangle. The invitation is to always do a u turn, it may be these ‘others’ are your perfect tormentors. We need to bring the focus back onto ourselves, who and how we are…. So here IFS has a wonderful way through of bringing us to SELF Lets now look at the Winners Triangle and the Healthy Triangle.

Winners triangle Acey Choy in 1990 suggested we could step off this triangle and instead use vulnerable instead of victim, accept vulnerability and problem solve and be self aware and assertive instead of persecuting… ask for what is needed, be assertive

and caring instead of rescuing… show concern, but not over-reach and problem solve for others.

The Power of TED 2009 has a similar one, all subtly different but what works for you? …

Victim – creator, Persecutor as challenger and Rescuer - Coach

My IFS colleague, Emma Redfern, discusses the Healthy Triangle in a chapter in her excellent book about IFS Supervision and Consultation (https://www.routledge.com/Internal-Family-Systems-Therapy-Supervision-and-Consultation/Redfern) The Healthy Triangle is adapted from the Beneficial Triangle of Proctor and Tehrani 2001. This one makes so much sense to me, bringing the triangle back from the dynamics between… into healthy ways of being, coming from Self and speaking for parts… either internally or then ‘returning’ to another, the dynamic between. (And just notice how solid that triangle feels, with its base.. ).

Moving away from roles (protectors) and the dynamic between to ways of being or qualities of a person who has access to Self… vulnerable, Potent (in the sense of having personal power, choice and agency) and responsive to and responsible for oneself. We can put in boundaries and speak for parts.

So I don’t know how this is for you, how it lands within your own system … what do you make of it? I’m really curious.. Much more to explore, these are some of my musings.